Speaker 1 (00:02.158)
Welcome to the Massage Business Success podcast. My name is Amy Bradley Radford and I help solopreneurs just like you learn how to do it all.
I teach you how to earn $60,000 a year or more at the table while also providing you with the continuing education you need to be successful without burning yourself out. I'm a board certified massage therapist and have been practicing massage therapy for over 30 years and I'm a nationally approved continuing education provider for over 20 years. I had my monthly business column in Massage Magazine called Advanced Business Strategy for many years where I was able to share all kinds of
tips about how to have a successful business with business owners just like you. I have also developed the pain patterns and solutions modality where we learn how to apply non-inflammatory therapeutic massage techniques to create real pain relief that lasts. Now if you're ready to help your clients and make money at the same time, let's dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:15.566)
Well, welcome back to the podcast. Today I have a really special guest that I've wanted to bring to you. Someone who works deeply and intersects with the shift many massage therapists are making from survival mode into true leadership of their business. Joanna is here with me, a business strategist for holistic practitioners and her insights are going to challenge how you see a role in business, the industry and in the healing journey of your clients. Joanna, welcome. Welcome to the podcast.
I'm super excited to be here talking to you today, Amy. Thanks for having me.
I'm excited to have you here. you know, just to start out a little bit, know, Joanna reached out to me and then I got to meet Joanna and I was like, where has this woman been my whole life? And I was really excited to learn about your approach and how you teach people to really look at business a little bit differently. just to start out, why don't you tell my listeners a little bit about yourself?
Yeah. Well, um, I am somebody who I started my first business, which was a strength and conditioning gym with absolutely no experience in business whatsoever. And so that's like, that's like 99 % of wellness practitioners.
Yeah, pretty much. Two feet, jump in. Good luck.
Speaker 2 (02:33.912)
Right. And it's like, don't think we're getting into business. We think we're finding our purpose and finding how we want to help people. Right. And so, but it is a business. And so what happened in my case was the business, I say that it took off, but like, it took off in that I just got busy. It's not, I just got busy. were people started coming and it was just me. And I basically found, you know, found myself in burnout.
very fast. And it was a, you I just had a wake up call really early on. I was at that point, I was a single mom of two young kids and it was just kind of insane. And I knew that I knew that what the reason I started this business was because I really had something to offer my community that didn't exist. And, and so I knew I really wanted to help people, but I realized, I have to figure out
what it means to be a business owner. I have to figure out what it means to lead my business because I was just like the strength coach on the floor and then doing everything else too, right? Again, like most people, like most of you listening.
Yeah, like most of us listening, like our number one goal when we started into business was to get our schedule full. Right. When you get there and then you find out what it's really like, well, hang on.
Right, right. So I realized that I needed to, I needed to learn how to do business. And I also, I had been a high school history teacher for 10, for a decade prior to this. And I already had really worked really hard. um, and as a new mom at that point, I was like, no, I do not need to beat myself into the ground to do this. I know that there's a way to do this where I can like have a life.
Speaker 2 (04:23.758)
and my business can be sustainable. And so I just kind of set that as a goal and was like, I'm going to learn how to, how do people, how do people run good businesses, you know, and just set about learning that. And, um, and so within a couple of years had, had really turned it all around and develop that business and it grew and grew and grew. And, uh, I mean, years in, I had a team, you know, I had grown a team to help, help, uh, run the place and, um,
And so in that time, I got recruited by a fitness business coaching company to be one of their coaches. And so that's when I started coaching others or helping others and realized that like my background in teaching, I was like, Ooh, this is great. I really like this. this like really fits my skillset here. And, and so I was doing that, but I'll just note that at the same time, I was, I am an athlete.
in an aging body. And I was seeing so many different body workers in particular, massage therapists in particular, but also therapists, naturopaths, all kinds of like these wonderful support providers because I valued my health so much. And I was working with these people that I just thought were incredible and saw that they too were like either burned out, you know, I mean, just completely over-brooked and burned out or struggling.
to even make ends meet, even when they were really good at what they did. And it was just such an important awareness that like, I mean, it's sad, but it doesn't matter how good you are at your work. It's like business is a different set of skills. And so I kind of went like, I really wanna help these folks who are helping me. And I started doing that on the side. And then I basically in 2017, so this is what eight or nine years ago,
decided I just want to go all in and this is what I want to do. And so I sold my gym, which I have to say like it was sellable and valuable because it was a profitable, sustainable business that could run without me. And I started this business that I have now, which is helping wellness practitioners, holistic practitioners of all sorts, build profitable and sustainable businesses for themselves.
Speaker 1 (06:41.6)
You know, I listen to you talk and it's like, I can put so many of my coaching clients into this category because I work with solopreneurs. That's pretty much, you know, to help a solopreneur how to build systems to support themselves or to find their value. And I can so identify with the, am so busy, but I can't actually make it even though I'm so busy. they...
And nobody has really sat down, even through massage school or business training that you received, they don't really have the spectrum, the idea of where they're taking themselves to, the long game. The vision. I talk to people all the time and I'm like, what's your exit strategy? What are you building your business into? How do you see yourself progressing? And it's just not a normal conversation. so being able to talk to people about
looking beyond themselves and looking down the road is huge. And then being able to provide some ideas or a plan or a system of how to work themselves into that place where they are so comfortable and they love what they do every day. I admire the, the teaching aspect behind this. I admire what you've put together for, people looking for something game changing for themselves inside their business.
Well, know, as we've kind of, Joanna and I sat down a little bit before and talked before we did this podcast and I was picking her brain because, you know, I love to talk to other business owners. know, Joanna, what would you want most massage therapists to understand about the power they hold as a business owner? I mean, just to start right there, what would you want them to know? Like what would reach out and grab them right now listening?
Well, I, okay. I, I would want you all listening to know that you are the leader of your business. You're like the president, the director, the CEO. Right. Let's just say CEO. It's not a term that I love, but you know, chief executive officer. Let's just say that.
Speaker 1 (08:59.31)
like chief executive officer. That's why I'm at my home too. I'm the chief executive officer inside my home too.
Right. So you are, but the thing is, is a lot of us will go like, what? don't have some big company. That's not what it is. You know, like, I don't have that, but you do. If you have a business and you're not the CEO, then nobody is then that's what your business is. There is no CEO. There is no leader. There is no president. There is no director if it's not you. And so if you are in just, you know, 95 %
practitioner mode, I just see my clients and 5 % I'm giving you 5 % for like what you think is running the business, which is just administrative tasks. That's not leadership. There's nobody there's nobody steering the ship. And so really all you have there is a job. Yeah, and that that is what so many practitioners
make for themselves is they make themselves a job and a job is where you have to show up every day and you're getting paid for your hours. Right. And it's trading time for dollars. And so if you don't show up to work, you don't get paid. That's not how a CEO gets vacations and still gets paid. A CEO gets profit sharing in addition to their salary. Right. And a CEO is who is setting the vision for the company. And then
making this strategy and plan to get there. And so if nobody's doing that for your company, it has no leadership. It's yours. That's a space for you to fill. You don't even have to apply to anybody to get the job. Like it's yours. the job you got. Right. And then it's like, you have that opportunity to step into leadership of your business. And in fact, without doing that, you know, have, have fun. You probably already know what the consequences are.
Speaker 1 (10:41.228)
Got it immediately.
Speaker 2 (10:54.978)
But when you do step into leadership, you get to make the business that you want that provides for your clients. I think one of the things we're going to talk about is the ways that I teach practitioners how to serve your clients even more powerfully in a way that is actually more profitable and sustainable for your business. So when you step into leadership, you can do things like that. You can do things like take vacation and still get paid. You can build.
your business to support your life that you want to have. So it can be both meaningful, profitable, give you purpose and give you the lifestyle that you want, which may mean a lot more time with your family or partner or kids or on your own rest and recovery or self care or hobbies, whatever it is you love to do.
Yes, because as a business owner, can spend your entire life working, entire life. So I was raised by an entrepreneur, and so I was taught work ethic. I was taught how to work. But I watched my father, who worked all day, and then he'd come home and he would work two or three hours at night. And it wasn't until later on when he took control of his business and became a leader inside his business that he actually gained some time back in his life. And I have observed that.
I know how to work my guts out. I don't want to. I want to create a business and a lifestyle for myself that I really enjoy. And that's happening. I get to talk about it on a podcast. It's a lot of fun. But you know, that is one thing that I notice with some of the coaching I do. I talk to people about reverse engineering their life. Where is it you really want to be? What do you see yourself doing? What is...
What is the salary you want to make? What is it you want to bring home? What kind of things do you want? And how does, then how does that information turn around and set up your business? And that's a completely different mindset, especially when you talk to people that started out and all they could, all they wanted to do is gain clients. And then they get to this place where they have all the clients, but they have no control over what it is that they have no control over their time. And every client in their life is controlling.
Speaker 1 (13:11.726)
So talk to me a little bit more about some of the systems that you put people through in order to kind of create the same thing, how to create that in their own business.
Yeah. Well, the first thing is it does start with what is, what is the life that you want? And to get more, clear and specific about that is what is your ideal schedule? And so this requires that people get out of what I call the freelancer mindset. The freelancer mindset is, is, is my phrase for, practitioners who are
who are stuck in this, like, I just need to get clients and I need to do whatever they say. It's like, work for them, right? And they, when a new lead comes up, they'll say things like, what are you looking for? Right. Or in the case of massage therapy, like maybe you offer different kinds of sessions and it's like, what kind of session do you want? It's all just like, what do you want? And I'm going to give it to you so that you'll pay me. That's what I call the freelancer mindset. And it spills into all of.
the business in that the whole business is just this people show up and I'm there to work for them. And so the shift is into that leadership or I call it courageous leadership. And part of that is going you, what is the schedule that is ideal for you? And so with my clients anyway, we even start with how many hours per week do you want to work?
And some people that are so stuck in the freelancer mindset actually even have trouble with that because they start going, well, I have to work this many hours to make this amount of money because I charged as much per session. And we have to wipe all that away because, I can talk about this here, but how much you charge is important and is actually based on some really specific numbers rather than how much you think people are pay or what other people are charging, which is how it's usually done. Just scrap all that and just start with.
Speaker 2 (15:18.534)
What is your ideal schedule? How do you want to wake up every day? You know, when do you want to go to work? If you go, if you go somewhere to work, when do you want to come home? What do you want to be happening in your life? That's not happening now. Your kids may be a certain age and you want to pick them up from school every day, or you want to be reading them stories to bed every night. Or I remember for me, I was like, I want to have breakfast with my kids every day. and so.
Truly, truly, what's the ideal number of hours you want to work? And when people actually get to that for real, it usually ends up being, I don't know, for folks that work with me, and it's been hundreds, it usually is somewhere between 20 and 30 hours. But some people are less and some people actually want to work more. But, and then it's looking at, what are my best hours? Like where I'm freshest? Where, some questions in there, where do I want to see clients in that time?
And where do I want to be doing other kinds of work? And so this is a key piece that I teach. It might be a shocker actually for folks listening. You work with solopreneurs, but if you're a solopreneur, my rule of thumb is that after you decide your total number of work hours and you map them out in the week, like let's say, well, just me, I work Tuesday through Thursday, 9 a.m. to 2 p.m.
On the time zone that my business is right. So those are my total hours. So what is that? Nine, 10, 11, 12, one, two, that's five hours. So that's 15 hours a week. And so as a solopreneur, which I'm not, I'll just note, but as a solopreneur, 50 % of your work hours get to go to client facing hours and 50 % are for leading the business. And I can talk about what that means because I can imagine that folks just think.
Again, I hinted at this before that that's administrative stuff. No, that's stuff that in the long run will just get delegated. That's not leadership, right? So leadership does include your financial management. It includes your sales, which we can talk about. So it includes doing your marketing and includes your visioning, your visioning and your leadership and your strategy for getting to where you want to go. And so there are, you have CEO dates with yourself where you're actually looking at.
Speaker 2 (17:40.984)
Here's all the numbers. Am I on track to where I plan to be? Do I need to make any adjustments or pivots? All of these are what happen in your leadership time. And that's 50 % of your working hours. So that's just a starting place, Amy, where it's like, what's your ideal schedule? And then even me introducing that thing that shocks people, that 50-50 thing. You're out to, just to give folks a sense, your client facing hours actually
decrease the more advanced your business is because you're likely growing support and growing team and your job is to lead the business more. So anyway, that's a starting point in terms of starting to make shifts in your business so that even envisioning what your ideal schedule is, like, how do you want, what do you want to do? When do you want to go to work? How do you want to wake up each day? When do you want to go to work?
What do you want to be doing? Like many people will end up deciding that, I'm only going to see clients on two days. I want to see them kind of all day on two days. And some people will be like, no, I want, you know, only to only see two clients a day across the days that I work and just in the afternoon. Like all of that is up to you to decide. And you can fool around with it as well, but to think of your own, energy and, and your own desires. so that's a first step.
I can't even remember what the question you asked was.
You know, no, I'm just I'm over here nodding my head because you know, I just I just had a coaching call just like a couple of days ago and this person I was working this just this this is just kind of an example. I don't dive into the systems like you do, but we dive into what do you really want? And when I met her a year ago, she was working every possible hour she could. She had no life. She was sick. She was just she was I don't even know how to do this. And we just
Speaker 1 (19:39.15)
We just set everything aside and I said, what do you want to do? And she's like, I have no idea. And we just worked through it. the conversation I had with her was a few days ago was just, you know what, I'm working three days a week. I'm doing the perfect number of clients and I doubled my income and I'm not even sure how all that happened. And it was because she was doing what she wanted to do. And it was creating, you know, the supply and demand. We can get into the economics of all of that, but
but just the empowerment. that's the thing I wanted to bring out was the empowerment. When you don't believe it will make a difference, and it truly does, it's the empowerment of taking control of your business and then cultivating it. And then it begins to roll and start to become something that truly feeds you as an entrepreneur. So I love that you address just the schedule.
just the schedule because then all of a sudden you have the energy and capacity to go to the next step. The next step. Yes. Yes. I like to work 20 hours a week. I love to work so many hours a day, four hours a day. After that, I want to go do what I want to do. I want to go, you know, I do a lot of caretaking for people in my family. And so this business supports my life. And that's what I love. That's what I
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:02.318)
And so that's the thing is you well just to tell everybody listening you absolutely can make your business You build your business intentionally to support yourself like You will you will make more money more sustainably when you do this properly, right? And it's just the booking as many hours as you can will never ever get you there. It's like a total hamster wheel. Yeah
intentionally.
Speaker 1 (21:29.294)
total hands to wear and it ends up in burnout, burnout of your body, burnout of your mind. You can't imagine. know, in one of the classes I teach, I talk about how I've worked with people that were completely packed and they left their businesses. They left great businesses and went and found a J-O-B, a job with a paycheck because they didn't want to be responsible anymore. And it always hurts my little heart. It hurts my little heart that they couldn't see another path.
Totally.
Speaker 2 (21:58.026)
Yes, totally, totally.
couldn't see another path. So I know that one of the important shifts that you teach is moving from selling those single sessions to programs or treatment plans. I'll be honest, the only treatment plan I ever sold people, because I do advanced pain management, was you have to come see me every week until your body says we're done. But it was a treatment plan of sorts, but it was a commitment. It was a commitment level. And my clients got where they wanted to go.
and I actually got to kick them out of my practice. But it wasn't that part. It was actually creating the difference I wanted to see for them that they were looking for. So what can you tell us about that when you work with
Yeah, there's a lot to say about that. So, you know, I was just talking about ideal, your ideal schedule and so on. So some key pieces that I teach and that also you may have heard in other places is to also, or next look at who are the people that you love working with and that see the best results from your services. So any person, I'm sure you, Amy, anybody who does any sort of business education, business coaching will talk about things like,
What would they say? Ideal client, your niche. They'll say things like that. I don't actually attempt to, the way I work with my folks is it's not a niche. It's not something you're like making up and it's something that is very naturally emerges out of your experience as a practitioner. So the simple prompt is, know, name three to five people that you've worked with that you loved working with and that saw great results.
Speaker 2 (23:45.634)
We take them, we start to look at why you loved working with them and why they saw great results and you see the patterns and that becomes a bit of an avatar for what I call your bullseye client. So, know, people in business will talk about a target market. there's a target market and I'm calling this your bullseye as in like your very best person. And so this is another.
big mindset shift, particularly for body workers who is particularly for massage therapists who are really used to that. Just like, I'm just here to please you. You know, what do you want? Because this is actually saying, I'm going to build my business around the people that I know are for me. I'm going to build my business around specifically them.
And around attracting them, calling them in and serving them the very best way that I can. And I just want to give a vision for folks. Like, when people are still stuck in the freelancer mindset, they go, my God, what do you mean? Like, would I be turning people away? Other people away. And just to be really frank, yes. In my model, you are turning people away very kindly and gently. It's a reason to have a great referral network. You refer them to others because.
They are other people's ideal clients. But when you build your whole business around a particular person, type of person, type of problems, it can be defined in many different ways, but around your bullseye client, they get better results. All of your services for them, you get to streamline and systematize all your processes and systems.
And you become known amongst those people. You become known as the person who helps these folks do this. And you get more referrals that way. Right. And it is so much more satisfying for you as a practitioner.
Speaker 1 (25:39.522)
So much more satisfied.
Yeah, to be to be helping people really, really powerfully. So to, when we, to, I'm going to talk about designing programs in a second, but designing programs or treatment plans starts with understanding who your bullseye clients are, because you're going to take those folks and you're going to think, I just gave the prompt a few minutes ago of like, think of three to five of just favorite people, right? Like favorite clients. You loved working with them. They saw great results from your services.
All the time, I just can guarantee that whoever came to mind for you listening is somebody who came frequently, came regularly, right? Came for the long term. That's why they sell the results. And so if you can think back to when they first came to you and what were their pains and their problems and their goals and their desires, like what was going on with them? Where were they then and where did they want to be?
And you basically just kind of go back in time and kind of retroactively go like, if I could design the journey for them, if I could design the program, the journey, the treatment plan really depends on what your work is like, which of those phrases might resonate with you, but I could have designed it now. What would it look like? And I want you to take the freedom of, of
Breaking out of just the real standard paradigms of like sessions are an hour or 90 minutes and they're every week or whatever into just anything you want Like what would this person need if I were to start again with them to get the results they're after and That could include so many things. It might include even more than the bodywork, right?
Speaker 2 (27:26.714)
lot of folks tell me particularly massage therapists and body workers tell me that they like assign homework. They'll give like stretches or, or, you know, activation exercises to their people and they never do them and so on. And so imagine like if they, if they were to do them, like what's all this stuff that you want to, what would want to provide to help that person get, get the results they're after. That is what I teach practitioners to do is to build that. And then I teach them how to market and sell that program or treatment plan.
And it is radical and revolutionary in a business. it is a model. do teach a model where you stop selling single sessions and you only enroll people in a program or treatment plan. That is what's going to get them amazing results. So I do want to point out the difference here, Amy, between that and just the, like, so the person who comes, everybody's got this before they turn to this model that, that I'm, that I'm talking about.
Everybody's got some clients who they've just come for years or they come for months or you just gave the example of some people who come and then they're ready to move on, right? Yeah. They just come. There are some practical differences. I'll talk about it, particularly in terms of money and the business and finances. But first, I just want to address the energetics.
And I can speak to this really strongly as the client. I told the story that I decided to work with all sorts of wellness practitioners because I was the client of so many. And I never had somebody enroll me in a program until after they became my client and did that. But I absolutely had amazing practitioners who were just like, okay, come in next week. Okay. Are you coming in next week?
And energetically for the client, that is very, very different than a defined container. To just keep coming until I get better is quite different than a practitioner telling me, what I believe you need is a six months of therapy. that's going to look like this and this and this, and here's what we're going to do on that path. First, I'm going to address this.
Speaker 2 (29:48.002)
I'm gonna need you to do these things at home. Then we're gonna move on to this. And all of this is to get to this route that I think is what's causing this, whatever, right? And so on, and then we'll be in our last phase. And at that point, this should be resolved. And we may have even moved into some more maintenance level stuff or whatever. That defined container energetically is more satisfying. It's safer.
It gives the client more confidence in what they're going to get in understanding the process. And it gives you as the practitioner more commitment from them when you've defined what that journey is. And what I find is that many practitioners, like when you're saying you had people who would just keep coming and then they'd keep coming until they got better and then they were ready to graduate, you likely had a plan in your head for them.
Thank
Speaker 1 (30:46.286)
And
Maybe occasionally, like you mentioned it, but it was never laid out for them from the beginning. Here's the plan. Here's how we're going to tackle this. Here's what I'm going to do. Here's what you need to do. Are you in? Right? It is a different thing to be session by session. It's different to show up each session and be for me to be asked, how's your body today? What's going on?
than it is for this full continuity of, here's where we've been in the last month. How's your body feeling today in the context of where we are in this journey?
Does that make sense? Okay. So, so just want to say energetically, a container is different than basically this open bottle of we're just, we're just going to keep going. And I don't really know how this goes. There's a, there's less safety in there. There's less confidence in there. but then.
Yes, I'm listening.
Speaker 1 (31:50.478)
There's less ability to make a difference. Less ability to, and if your clients are coming to you because they want something resolved, you know, I'm just thinking back through this a little bit. And I know that there were clients coming to me because they wanted to, and I know there was clients coming to me because they wanted something more from me. They wanted me to help them on this journey, but nothing was ever laid out in front of them. I can see that.
There's like,
Speaker 1 (32:15.724)
like, okay, this is how we're going to do this together and we'll modify as your body and we figure out what it is that your body needs, but we're going to, we're going to address that. And I know one of the problems that, as a business coach, trying to help people with their schedule is I have people tell me all the time, I know that I want to work on this person every week, but I don't have time. I don't know how put that into my schedule. I don't know how to create that. don't, I don't, know, and so it solves a huge
It solves something that many of you already have a question about, but you're just not sure what to do with it yet. Many, many people.
Yep. Yep. And so back to those, you know, when I was talking about your ideal schedule, defines how many client facing hours you have. I will just say briefly here that your pricing is needs to be based on how much money the business needs to be sustainable and to be sustainable includes your salary in there because you need to get paid the same amount every month, no matter what.
So your pricing takes into account business expenses, your salary, your profit that you need to have, and your client facing hours. All of those, we use a calculator that does that for us, but all of those things need to be calculated into what the cost is. And when you are designing programs and treatment plans, the cost is the total cost of the program. You are not charging per session.
So you are enrolling people. So you can see in that ideal calendar, this is how many client facing hours I have. And you set aside a number of those. It can be all of them to begin as these are to enroll people in my program. So let's just say you have 12 client facing hours a week. That's you can have 12 people in what I call your front end program. That's your initial program when people first come to you at a time.
Speaker 2 (34:16.64)
And yes, they're booked out. You are booked out because the program is multiple months long. That's all based on your ideal clients. So just to give folks a picture, have, again, I work with all kinds of practitioners, not just hands on body workers, but plenty of hands on body workers as well. But I have people whose programs are as short as six weeks. I only see them that short when it's like, when it is someone like a body worker or a hands on practitioner where.
their market is people coming in acute pain. And so it's like to address whatever that thing is. So people might have six weeks, nine weeks, 12 weeks. That's kind of the shortest I see, but many of my people have three months, four months, six months, 12 month programs that when they first come. So I talk about a front end program, which is like when people are coming to you right away, what's, what are the goals and desires and that you're getting them to. But then we also have something that we call a backend program, which is more like a
like a maintenance model. Right. So, so as far as that, that, the payment, I just want to say what it does for your business is they are not buying sessions. so just want to point out, this is not selling packages. I do not call them packages on purpose because plenty of plenty of body workers will, will sell packages, which is like this arbitrary, like 10 sessions at a discounted rate.
That is definitely not what I'm talking about for a number of reasons. One, it's just arbitrarily made up 10 sessions or five sessions or 15 or whatever it is. That's not the journey. That's not the container where you're taking them through a particular process. Also, this isn't about discounting at all. It's almost the opposite. This is actually higher level commitment. This is
We are going to do this together. We are going to go on this journey together to get you out of your pains and problems and to your goals and desires. It's more valuable. It's not less valuable. So this is not that. And it also all of the sessions in a, in a treatment plan or program, they have, you have defined the cadence, the frequency, the sequence of how this all goes. Whereas when people are selling these packs,
Speaker 2 (36:32.344)
That's just like what you get to use it up in six months or something. That's just a completely different thing. So just want to clarify that these aren't packs of sessions. These are, this is a journey that you're taking somebody on. This is a, a plan. It's a plan. So imagine when you enroll somebody in it, the plan is the total price. let's just say it's three months long and it's, you know, 3,600 bucks, right? So people can pay monthly. And to note, this is
because so many practitioners in the freelancer mindset are used to that. you know, they book the session, they come to the session, they pay and you're paying like for doing the session. That's not how this is. This isn't like, you're not invoicing people. put them in during the sales process, which we can talk about, because that's a really important key piece of this is how to enroll folks in programs. But when somebody is in and they say, yes, and you guys have decided together, this is what we're doing.
Yes, yes, and it's going to be 3600 bucks. They can either pay in full or you set them up on just monthly recurring billing. It's just one time set it and forget it. And so they're paying what is that 1200 a month 1200 a month is just automatically automatically billed. And I'm not talking about it sends them an invoice. I mean, it's just automatically charged and it goes into your bank account. They don't they don't have to do anything. You don't have to do anything. It's just already done. We're just in already together. And so just imagine
I mean, just imagine what this is like for me or any of my clients. They have 12 months and more of revenue already coming in already, already coming in. It's already sold, already booked. You can see how much money you're going to be making in five months, in nine months. You can see any shortfalls so that you know how many, how many new clients you need to get. And
There's no such thing as over stuffing your schedule because we've already defined what that is and the pricing has already taken that into account. If 12 is the total number of people you can have in your front end program at one time, that's it. It's 12, right? You're full and at 12, because your pricing was based on that, you're making all the money that you wanted to because that's based on your salary that you want, the profit you want, and then all your business expenses. Does that all make sense?
Speaker 1 (38:56.118)
Yes, reverse engineering your business. Yes. Yes. Because you're actually looking at consistency down the road instead of inconsistency. Because even when you're doing an appointment based business, there's a lot of inconsistency. There is.
a hundred. So it's the number one complaint. Number one complaint I hear from people is cancellations, no shows, reschedules. How do I stop people? How do I deal with cancellations? How do I enforce my cancellation policy? How do I deal with reschedules? What's the policy I should have? My answer to all that is they become moot. You don't even need to have some policy that you have to enforce when you move to a programatized model because people all show up for their sessions. just doesn't, you just don't.
Get the drop-offs.
You have a higher level of commitment. Well, and you know, can I take it back just a step when you were talking about those favorite people you like to work with, those ones that made a difference, those weren't the ones that were canceling. Right. Those people are not the ones that are canceling their appointment. The ones that are half interested in what it is that you're trying to do are the ones canceling their appointments, not the people that really want the difference. And yes, you want a full schedule of those people that understand your value.
Way, way,
Speaker 1 (40:09.174)
and want to work with you and you want to work with them. That full schedule, now that's amazing. That's amazing.
Yeah. And I would just, I would kind of twist that a little bit about understand your value and really, I would say that it actually starts with them and they understand they are committed to their goals and you need to be able to give them the confidence that you can help them get there, which is what would happen to me in the sales process and learning a really good sales process that does that. And part of a sales process is you actually.
assessing this person and going, can I help this person get to their goals for real? Is this somebody who I definitely can help get to their goals? If they are great, you keep going and you invite them in. And if they're not, you again, kindly refer them to somebody who you think would be able to help them better. but I don't think it's really about your worth or value. It's about, it's about them.
Plenty of folks are not committed to their own health and wellness. So that's a number one that has to, they need to be committed, but they also need to feel like I can do this. I can do this with you. You can help me do this.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can see that. You know, where I work with some advanced pain management, one of the things that I find when people come to my classes is they're coming for those two clients. They're coming for those three clients that they just can't figure out what's going on with them. And it haunts them. It haunts them. And so that's where I come at from their value because they want to learn how to help someone more. And I admire that quality, but
Speaker 1 (41:51.906)
but not being able to provide the service they want to those two or three people, it makes them feel less than, and they forget their value, they do.
Yeah, it's, it's what your naming is one of the reasons why we want to define who are our bullseye clients because that man just talk about like living your purpose, living your purpose when you have that impact on all of your clients. And then the opposite as you're noting is really, really hard, you know? and the thing is, is there's somebody that's right to work with everyone out there. So, you know,
Find your network of folks who and who they work with so you can refer for people to the right to the right practitioner for them.
I just think how empowering it would be to be successful and to run your business from that mindset. Just running your business from that mindset and not being so depleted or not giving more when you shouldn't be or giving from a place where you don't have any more to give. mean, there's all those pieces that factor into this business that runs you instead of you that runs this business.
You know, I know some of the people are listening, they're like, my gosh, how can I change this? Well, I look in terms of energy exchange when it comes to hands-on work and body work and running a business, there's an energy exchange. And when that energy exchange is so much higher and it's so much more balanced, it continues to drive you in a completely different way and it doesn't exhaust you. doesn't.
Speaker 2 (43:30.11)
Yes, yes.
your business becomes much more profound to who you are.
That's 100 % right.
Yes, yes. OK, we mentioned a couple of things we were going to come back and talk about, and now we've gone down this path that I don't even remember what we were going to come back and talk about.
I know that I mentioned like sales process. I think that's worth talking about here because because people don't because practitioners don't learn how to do this. Like we think we're doing a good job if we have, you know, if we have buttons on our website that let people book sessions without us having to talk to them or something. And so just to note, like you don't you don't sell programs or treatment plans to people without
Speaker 2 (44:15.448)
talking to them and without really having an in-depth conversation with them to make sure that they're a good fit for the work that you have to make sure that you can help them and to make sure that they're committed, right? Make sure that they're one of your bullseye clients and they're somebody that you wanna work with. And so the way we do that, so I teach, I call it the predictable sales system. And so I teach a really, really step-by-step sales process. I mean, I'll just say,
whenever I speak with a new practitioner who's just coming to me for a consultation really, which is what I'm about to talk about is consultations. And I asked them like, so how do people find you? How does somebody end up like working with you? And, you know, especially amongst solo practitioners, there's just a lot of like, I get emails, there's a contact form on the website, I get texts.
and there's just all this sort of like back and forth and a whole lot of back and forth with leads. it doesn't need to happen and, you'll lose leads along the way. People who ask a bunch of questions and then ghost. And do I follow up with them? I just want to say like all of that can be taken away. And what we want to create is the way I visualize it just metaphorically is that it's stepping stones that are to your front door.
Mm-hmm.
You're just giving people these step by step and they're invited to take the next step. It's very consent based, right? Would you like to take this next step? Here it is. They take it or they don't. And that's different than ghosting. It's all explicit, right? And so where ultimately the, ultimately where the, you know, in business terms, we'd say the conversion point is where elite...
Speaker 2 (46:02.154)
In my process, there's a lead to a prospect to a client. And so where somebody becomes a client is in a consultation. And the consultation is something that if you've never learned how to do a consultation, then you're just winging it and, and they probably don't work very well a lot of times, or you're just kind of randomly talking to people. I know some people offer a free consultation, but it's not like a requirement. It's just kind of like, if you want to talk, I can talk about it first.
in my system, every single person has a consultation that goes and it's a very particular process in the consultation. And so when I say every single person, mean, even like your mom or your sister or your cousin wants to work with you. They go through the consultation process because it is very much part of the, it's part of the onboarding. It's part of the alignment that you're creating between you and your clients.
It is not just like how you make the sale or just want to be really clear about that. It really is about alignment. And I mean, you laugh. It's meant to be a little bit funny when I say like, even your mom goes through it. But one of my clients told the story to a group of us, to a group, one of my groups the other day and said that her mom wanted to work with her and she put her mom through, we have a filter before the consultation, which I call the red velvet rope policy, which is a term.
taken from Michael Port, if anybody knows him. And so there's a filter to determine, I even going to have a consultation with this person? And her mom didn't make it through the filter. And that's like important. And she was very proud of it. My client was very proud of it. She's like, I'm not the right person for you, mom. And she gave her a referral to somebody who she thought was, you So that's a legit thing. It's a real thing.
you don't know what to do with your family members that come to see you. Here you go. Now you can figure out what to do with your family members because they're your hardest clients. Everybody tells me that my mom is my hardest client. My sister's my hardest client, know, whatever. So well, here you go. Now they can, you know, either make it or not. They got the cut.
Speaker 2 (48:14.144)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So everybody goes through this process. I mean, really, even your best friend, even somebody you think could be a great client, that's not really the point. It's an alignment piece. And so the consultation, I teach 10 steps to it, but I'm not going to go through all of those and I don't think I need to here. It's just to know, like, this is actually how you enroll people in programs. Let me say some key pieces of it. You do an assessment of this person.
you ask them the whole first half hour, I call it the interview, and you are interviewing them, not the reverse. The whole first half hour you are assessing. So the interview is you're asking them plenty of questions. What's going on? How did this happen? How does that feel? How do you feel about that? How's that impacting you, et cetera? And as a body worker, that first half may also include an actual physical assessment and palpations. Like you may actually be wanting to feel soft tissue and
testing some things, muscle testing, whatever you do, right? So that might be part of it, but a big portion is that interview. And I'll just note, because I think this is really worth mentioning. So many massage therapists and body workers are so focused on the physical aspect of the people that come in to see them that they're completely missing when people first come. And I can tell this many times over as a client, I've experienced this.
they're just missing so much of the psychosocial emotional aspect of pain and injury. And so I'll just give the example of me as like I've been a competitive weightlifter for almost 20 years now. You can bet that when I have an injury, let's say, or some kind of pain and I go to a body worker, yeah, sure, my shoulder hurts, but I'm actually more consumed
by the fact that like, can't do my sport and my sport, I have a big identity around being this like strong woman and I'm not able to be who I think I am right now. Like that's a huge aspect of injury. And I know that body workers and massage therapists so often miss this because when we learn
Speaker 2 (50:33.486)
When we go through all the steps and the processes that I take people through, I will ask them questions about like, how does that impact your clients? And they don't know.
They can only say, they can only say like, their shoulder hurts. Like what are their pains and problems? Well, their shoulder hurts and they'll give me clinical, clinical terms. And I'm like, but how's that impacting them? Right. And so these are part of the questions that you ask, in the interview, because you really are treating the whole person, even if you think you're just treating their body, you're reading, you're treating the whole person. And I, can you just, anybody listening, like, do you, do you understand? hope you understand like.
heard people feel when you're when you are actually talking to the whole person. They feel heard but then your program or treatment plan gets to address that whole person.
You know, I think that's one of the reasons why massage therapists are so
Well, I just came back from a national convention. This was one of our discussions, massage therapists are burnout because the demand after COVID was huge and it's not physical. It's emotional. It's mental. It was what lack of touch did to people. So yeah, there's a huge component to that. And while we acknowledge it, again, if you're seeing too many people, you can't be present. And there it is.
Speaker 1 (52:06.54)
You can't be present for that person in their journey.
Yeah, yeah. So this is just one of the most powerful things to add to your business is a clear sales process that has a consultation that has, mentioned the filters and it has a consultation and in that consultation, really seeing the whole person. And so just to kind of flesh out the rest of that picture, you're doing this assessment that is not just a physical assessment. That's also the psychosocial emotional piece and interview and maybe physical assessment.
And then you're laying out for them what you sincerely, genuinely as a practitioner believe is what they need to reach their goals. And so that's an amazing and powerful process where a client again, feels listened to, heard, understood. And when you have that plan, that's that confidence piece that you're giving them confidence. Yes, this can be.
This can be addressed, this can be handled and here's the way forward with it. And you'll get people enrolling in your programs.
Yay! And it feels totally different. Feels totally different.
Speaker 2 (53:20.226)
Yeah. it's a, it's a completely different thing to have somebody who, to have somebody who's just said, yes, okay. Yes. I'm going to work with you for the next six months on this cadence that you have. Like it's that's a big step off the hamster wheel and you get more and more and more of those and you eliminate the single sessions. And then you have a whole business like that. And. You know, you can see your business six and 12 months into the future. You're working with people that you love and you're getting them amazing results.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like how you've brought it all together. I do, because it's not just business, Joanna. Oh, yeah. not just. It's not just. I've often said that even massage therapy, we're artists that don't know how to run our business. We have this beautiful skill and this way of working with people, but we don't know how to take care of ourselves inside of our business. But how do you blend
those two together? How do you really blend those two together? Because business is all about expenses and massage is all about the feels. So how do you bring the feels and the expenses together in a way that works for you that's rewarding? Really? It's it's it's a fight. It's a fun place. All right. Okay. What's our next step Joanna?
That's it. We got our people in our programs. I think our next step is to
I think our next step is to talk about your upcoming event. yes. Yes.
Speaker 2 (54:52.75)
Empowered practitioner event. So, anybody who's listening to this, you know, in, real time, when it's, when this episode is released coming up very soon, I run an annual event called the empowered practitioner event. is a week long. It's free. And it's where I go in depth on all the stuff and more that I've talked about, including, you know, who your bullseye clients are, how to design programs for them.
what the step-by-step predictable sales system looks like, how to price your services and how to market your services as well. So I'd love to invite folks to that. And I think you'll have the link in the show notes, right? But it's my name, joannasapir.com, which is an unusual name. So Joanna is normal, but Sapir is S-A-P-I-R. So joannasapir.com, E-P-E-M-B-S.
Thank
E P E B S, but you'll have the link there.
Yep, it'll be in the show notes. So they know where to find you. And I think this is an amazing opportunity, amazing opportunity for anyone out there that's wanting to go to the next level inside their business. They want to know how to turn this job that they've created into actually their own life and actually support themselves. Much.
Speaker 2 (56:14.946)
And then I'll just mention for anybody that misses the Empowered Practitioner event, do have a freebie for you all, a free gift, which is three workflows. Since I'm all about systems, it's three of our systems, including the Predictable Sales System, three workflow handouts for you to see how you can systematize and add some structure to your business where it probably doesn't exist. And you'll have the link for that as well, but that one's at joannasappear.com slash MBS.
and then if I can just give one more plug, which is since we've got podcast listeners here, I also have a podcast. Unlike you, Amy, I'm not consistent with it, but it's got some great episodes.
No, we're not consistent. No, we're not.
Okay, I'm sporadic. I put them out in spurts, but it is a really good podcast. And I talk about a lot of this stuff and that's called the business revolution for practitioners podcast with my name.
It's a wonderful podcast. I've enjoyed catching up on lots of episodes because I think you're a great mind in this field. I think you've set forth something totally different for people to really work towards and I'm very excited to have met you.
Speaker 2 (57:27.049)
thank you. Thank you.
Yeah, all right. Well, Joanna, thank you so much for joining me today and for all of you listening. And if you've ever felt like your work matters, but your business feels out of alignment, this is your sign. So let's shift how you serve and step into your own leadership and your clients need and deserve that version of you. So, all right, we will catch you all on our next podcast. Thanks Joanna.
Thank you. Bye.
Speaker 2 (57:58.19)
you
Thank you for listening. For more information about classes, products, or coaching, go to amybradleyradford.com and if you've liked what you've heard, please subscribe and leave us a review.
